– The topic of migration has become particularly relevant in Germany. What significance does it have for the future of our society?
– In a situation marked by large migration processes worldwide, this topic is a topic of the future for many European as well as non-European countries. No country can be excluded. The differences between them are only that some are immigrant countries and others are not, but they also have immigration. In a legal sense, Germany is not an immigrant country, but it has experienced a huge influx of immigrants: 20 million people since 1950 alone. Moreover, it is not only about whether we should allow immigration or not, but primarily about issues of managing it and integration.
– There are many dimensions of migration. What is the primary focus of the immigration commission?
– First, we deal with the problem of immigration to Germany. According to our legislation, we have different categories of foreigners with varying rights to stay in the country. Second, a major topic is the relationship between national and European law. Third, the commission considers whether we need additional labor in Germany, whether we should make the country more open to immigrants with certain professions, and how the high unemployment rate relates to jobs that cannot be filled due to a lack of specialists. This by no means concerns only information technology professions.
The next problem, which will become especially pressing from 2010, is population decline. Moreover, already today in certain regions – primarily in Eastern Germany, but not only there – due to declining birth rates and internal migration, we are dealing with significant socio-spatial imbalances. And finally, there is the problem of integration, which, albeit at a very abstract level, defines the current discussion.
– You speak of a shortage of specialists and demographic problems that await Germany if there is no influx of immigrants in the coming years. But at the same time, survey results show that there is a fairly large group of the population that has the subjective feeling that too many foreigners live in Germany. How can this contradiction be resolved?
– The problem of immigration is largely a problem of domestic policy: education policy, advanced training policy, labor market policy. A positive attitude towards foreigners in the country, the fact that locals feel threatened by them or not, is largely related to people's life prospects. Moreover, this kind of threat can be very abstract. In Eastern Germany, it should be felt much weaker because there are almost no foreigners. Thus, I have come to the main point: it concerns self-understanding. In Germany, the prevailing view is that foreigners burden us. You rarely hear among the population the opinion that foreigners enrich our society, bring many new things to it. If we take the USA as a classic example of an immigrant country, they think quite differently there. The USA accepts more immigrant workers than other countries, and people there are clear that immigrants create jobs and thereby provide opportunities for less qualified individuals as well. It is necessary to clarify that immigrants create jobs, do not take them away. The widespread view that technological changes and globalization mean the end of the labor society is incorrect. The main counterarguments are demonstrated by our neighbors. We can no longer say that Germany is the country with the best indicators in labor market matters. Our neighbors show better indicators: in the Netherlands there is virtually no unemployment, take also the example of Denmark, Austria, and Switzerland.
– How can the situation in Germany be changed?
– One cannot simply tell people: you have nothing to fear. We must explain the interconnections. We have never run campaigns in this direction that would explain to people: if we do not want to jeopardize our own well-being, we must let immigrants into our country. Dynamic, productive, and inventive societies have always been open to exchange. There are virtually no ethnically homogeneous countries. Every culture should have its place, which does not mean, however, that I give up my own culture. Example: Armenians have integrated well in Germany, and at the same time they emphatically preserve their culture. The integration process is mutual. Today we need integration cultures.
– What could we do to promote integration more actively?
– Living in a country for a long time without knowledge of the language creates certain problems. This also leads to the formation of ghettos. In the Netherlands, for example, every immigrant undergoes an interview where their knowledge of the language, the country and its constitution is assessed, and they are informed about how to obtain housing or a job. It is stated very clearly that those who do not attend language courses will not receive certain social services. Certain things must be mandatory for both immigrants and the host society.
– Can recognition of the Basic Law alone serve as a common denominator? What else could contribute to a new sense of community?
– Loyalty to the Basic Law is seen as a matter of course. Until now, the question of citizenship has been secondary. It is true that citizenship alone says nothing about the degree of integration. It is a formal prerequisite. I often meet German citizens of foreign origin who realize that they are still regarded as foreigners and who feel that they are merely tolerated. Integration means coexistence: we expect foreigners to orient themselves towards our culture and integrate into it. However, integration also means that we must give up our prejudices. Otherwise, despite knowledge of the German language and German citizenship, ghettos can arise. The decisive role – this happens at the municipal level – is played by how we live with each other. It is important that not only certain ethnic groups live in one neighborhood.
In schools, there are classes where 70 or even 90 percent of the children are Turkish! Such proportions do not promote integration. The same applies to residential areas. This could be managed. But it cannot be said that we in Germany are starting from scratch: our charitable organizations, associations, churches, and folk high schools have long been doing important work in the field of integration. Our commissioners for immigrants and resettlers also work well. Additional efforts need to be made in this area. As long as the country does not understand whether it is a country of immigration or not, the integration measures it takes will appear insufficient. Whoever assumes that they are not recruiting labor or students from abroad does not create any infrastructure for them.
– Do you see a useful approach in the discussion about adaptation to 'German culture as a basic culture,' which was recently started by the opposition CDU?
– Whether useful or not, the discussion is in full swing. I consider the polemic important because a lot needs to be clarified. I mean the integration culture, because some things, such as language learning, I consider self-evident. However, in this discussion, the debate about what residents expect from immigrants is too dominant. A discussion about what immigrants can expect from locals is not happening. And they expect that human dignity will be respected and that no one, as a foreigner, will have to worry about being attacked verbally or physically. And we have not come to terms with the question of self-understanding. In this regard, it could be noted that those who do not love their country cannot be open to immigrants either. Perhaps the discussion will help clarify this. However, Germans are more inclined to engage in fundamental debates than to solve problems. Words must be followed by deeds.
Moreover, the talk is often only about foreigners who have not integrated. However, many integrated foreigners live here. Currently, the predominant impression abroad is not of insufficient integration of foreigners, but of insufficient protection of foreigners in Germany.
– Since the green card regulation came into force at the beginning of August, only about 2.900 foreigners have used it. Why?
– The limitation of the green card's validity to five years does not seem so attractive when compared to the conditions in the USA, Canada, or Great Britain, which actively recruit immigrants and with whom we compete. Moreover, it would be important to have more foreigners in science, more foreign students. It cannot continue to be that there are so few foreigners in universities. Now, thanks to the green card, foreign students will also have professional prospects in Germany.
– How do you see society in Germany in 20 years?
– I wish that we would at least return to what we already had. After all, one cannot say that the 60s and 70s were defined by constant discussions about foreigners. It is important that we create a framework based on the actual state of affairs: yes, we are de facto a country of immigrants. And we take this point of view into account by learning to coexist better with each other. This presupposes a willingness to integrate from both sides. But it also presupposes the necessity of integration in action in the areas of education, work, social sphere, and at the community level. In this respect, the question of how many people we can accept depends on the integration potential. To ignore this is to take the path of hostility towards foreigners. I would like us to see foreigners as a source of enrichment for our culture. I want to live in a country that preserves its cultural traditions of the past and future, and also takes an interest in other cultures and in how other people live and what ideas they have.
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